Lines and Tactics

flyergp21 · Post by **flyergp21** » Tue Sep 23, 2014 4:55 pm

Ok, first I must tip my hat to the guys who run the show, they're doing a great, great job.

But there is a but.

''3. The “hit & grind” and “neutral zone trap” tactics cannot be used for more than two lines. The first line cannot use the hit & grind or neutral zone trap tactics. Also, each tactic can only be used for a maximum of 70 seconds, and no more than 50 on one line.''

Clearly, there are a couple of ways to bypass the rule, and we could discuss that all night.

But I realized that the FIRST LINE can play 10 seconds shifts, so that in fact, it is the fourth line!

Before I go any further, can somebody confirm this?

Because I guess the intention of the rule was to prevent teams from using the Hit and Grind tactic on their most utilized line. And that's not what's happening.

Thoughts on this guys??

Calgary.Flames · Post by **Calgary.Flames** » Tue Sep 23, 2014 5:08 pm

It's been discussed before... Some would like more rules preventing this kind of lineup while some others want more freedom on how they can run their team. You just have to go with it and plan accordingly. I've made the necessay changes to my lineup so that I can match a team that uses its 1st as everything else but a 1st line.
I suggest you do the same.

flyergp21 · Post by **flyergp21** » Tue Sep 23, 2014 5:15 pm

I get that, and it's a shame.

Jets GM · Post by **Jets GM** » Tue Sep 23, 2014 6:45 pm

You can thank me for the 10 second first line strategy, I came across it while doing test-sims last year.

I believe the league is currently considering changes to line restrictions, and we should have an answer by the start of the regular season.

flyergp21 · Post by **flyergp21** » Tue Sep 23, 2014 6:49 pm

Allright, we'll wait and see what happens, but something needs to be done, even if it's only a little tweak in the rule.

Singin the BLUES · Post by **Singin the BLUES** » Tue Sep 23, 2014 6:51 pm

I believe it was TB, MTL and Pens doing their lines like that last yr, more near or in playoffs.

La Sainte-Flanelle · Post by **La Sainte-Flanelle** » Thu Sep 25, 2014 4:00 pm

IMHO, there should have ONLY restrictions about Strenght and Hitting attributes for these forwards running the Hit & Grind line, if u want to run it on one of the first 3 lines.
Something like HI + St >= 150 with St >= 70

If not, u can use HG on 4th line ONLY but shift lenght must be < to the first 3 lines.

GM Office Q · Post by **GM Office Q** » Thu Sep 25, 2014 5:06 pm

This is absolutely ridiculous. It's rules like these that make EHEC less and less interesting to me. Performing an attribute calculation to limit who you can have doing certain things? You've got to be kidding me. You can't be serious.

Jets GM · Post by **Jets GM** » Thu Sep 25, 2014 5:43 pm

I didn't create the 10-50-50-10 strategy, I found it through hundred and hundreds of test sims. I simulated the same games over and over again; the results slowly pushed me in the direction of the most optimal lineup for my team (10-50-50-10). Now, as other teams have started to realize the strength of this strategy, more people have begun to diverge towards it. It no longer possesses as much strength, since the advantage of having it has been equalized by facing a team with the same strategy.

This off-season, I decided that instead of trying to get a small edge by tweaking a 10-50-50-10 lineup, I would attempt to create a team that exposes the weaknesses of a 10-50-50-10 strategy. Yes, 10-50-50-10 does have weaknesses. Any line-up does, since we regulate HNG and NZT. I don't believe an "optimum" strategy exists, only well built teams constructed to play a certain way. Which is why we need to start settling on lineup regulations; building a team with a strategy in mind is really important. To have the regulations constantly changing creates an uneven playing field for those who are negatively impacted.

Teams will continue to use whatever lineup is deemed most popular, like 10/50 right now. Eventually, a brave GM will go against the grain and solve the puzzle, developing a strategy that beats it. GMs will then converge towards that strategy, and the process will repeat itself. It's the beauty of this game.

We can't ban an effective strategy just because it is just that, effective. I understand the unrealistic effect of having a line labeled "Line 1" that has a 10 second shift. If we decide on a rule that address it, I'm all for it. However, people will continue to search for effective lineups. If that comes at the cost of perceived realism amongst some GMs, so be it.

Were all here to play the game and have fun; but winning is more fun then losing.

Jets GM · Post by **Jets GM** » Thu Sep 25, 2014 5:44 pm

Ohh, and Quinn is right. Less regulation the better; allow GMs to be creative with their lineups. Don't stifle our artistic expression!

Commish Bub(NYR) · Post by **Commish Bub(NYR)** » Thu Sep 25, 2014 6:27 pm

I've been in a league with a "ST + HI" requirement for H&G lines, and people generally hated it. Strength is often very slow to develop, so you get cases where you'll have a guy with 80+ HI but low ST and so he can't play on a hitting line. Plus, it runs counter to our ultimate aim to simplify things somewhat for everyone.

I recognize that we pick and choose our battles with "realism" in this game, but I really don't like having 10-second first line shifts. Still, I don't want to stifle creativity here too much. I'd like to see a modification of what we already have along these lines:
max 2 H&G and/or NZT lines, with a max total of 80 secs between them;
min 30-second first line shift, whatever the tactic

That's it.

flyergp21 · Post by **flyergp21** » Thu Sep 25, 2014 6:36 pm

We're not even talking about strategy here!

We all know that EHM has a major bug that makes ''hit and grind'' way too effective a tactic.

Actually, ''hit and grind'' doesn't really exist anymore in real hockey. Good teams play a puck possession brand of hockey, which is probably as far to grinding as there is.

Anyway, the only thing we need to do is make sure talent beats grinding, like in real life. If you have a superstar that can hit and intimidate as well (read Eric Lindros in his prime), of course you have an edge!

But I thought you had rules in place to balance things out, so that ''hit and grind'' would not affect the results significantly, like it can in a ''freestyle EHM mode''...

Singin the BLUES · Post by **Singin the BLUES** » Thu Sep 25, 2014 6:38 pm

flyergp21 wrote:We're not even talking about strategy here!

We all know that EHM has a major bug that makes ''hit and grind'' way too effective a tactic.

Actually, ''hit and grind'' doesn't really exist anymore in real hockey. Good teams play a puck possession brand of hockey, which is probably as far to grinding as there is.

Anyway, the only thing we need to do is make sure talent beats grinding, like in real life. If you have a superstar that can hit and intimidate as well (read Eric Lindros in his prime), of course you have an edge!

But I thought you had rules in place to balance things out, so that ''hit and grind'' would not affect the results significantly, like it can in a ''freestyle EHM mode''...

Well TBH i dont know what type of hockey you are watching, but with me being a Flyers fan, i KNOW they have a H&G line and always have had at least one.....Rinaldo Hall Rosehill........and i kno wthe Leafs have had a few too......Tucker Robert and whomever......i am sure that i could come upwith more if i looked round.......

La Sainte-Flanelle · Post by **La Sainte-Flanelle** » Thu Sep 25, 2014 6:49 pm

Bub(NYR) wrote:I've been in a league with a "ST + HI" requirement for H&G lines, and people generally hated it. Strength is often very slow to develop, so you get cases where you'll have a guy with 80+ HI but low ST and so he can't play on a hitting line. Plus, it runs counter to our ultimate aim to simplify things somewhat for everyone.

Are u talking about FHL league?

That was the best league ever run, except the EHEC of course. And their lines and tactics regulations were awesome

Jets GM · Post by **Jets GM** » Thu Sep 25, 2014 6:49 pm

I like what Bub said, but are you proposing we lift the 1st line ban on NZT and HNG?

I don't care, makes things simpler.

flyergp21 · Post by **flyergp21** » Thu Sep 25, 2014 7:02 pm

@ St.Louis

Exactly! The only players that still play a grinding game only play 5-6 minutes a game, and that's what I'd like to see in EHM.

Singin the BLUES · Post by **Singin the BLUES** » Thu Sep 25, 2014 7:11 pm

Tampa Bay GM wrote:I like what Bub said, but are you proposing we lift the 1st line ban on NZT and HNG?

I don't care, makes things simpler.

I would say yes to NZT but not HAG on first line

flyergp21 · Post by **flyergp21** » Thu Sep 25, 2014 7:16 pm

I would say one simple rule: H and G anywhere, but for 25% of ice-time distribution, max.

So those who want to play their top players that brand of hockey still can, but your real grinding players won't be allowed to.

Jets GM · Post by **Jets GM** » Thu Sep 25, 2014 7:20 pm

flyergp21 wrote:I would say one simple rule: H and G anywhere, but for 25% of ice-time distribution, max.

So those who want to play their top players that brand of hockey still can, but your real grinding players won't be allowed to.

I'm, and I assume everyone else, not interested in calculating percentages every time I switch up my lines.

I like Bub's proposal, two rules and it's simple to follow.

flyergp21 · Post by **flyergp21** » Thu Sep 25, 2014 7:46 pm

NOOOOOO, with that rule, you could have 66% of your ice-time distribution going to H and G, wayyyyyy too much.

(80 sec. for 2 lines, 30 sec. for 1st line and 10 sec. for the other, so 80/120)

Singin the BLUES · Post by **Singin the BLUES** » Thu Sep 25, 2014 7:48 pm

This is going no where at all

flyergp21 · Post by **flyergp21** » Thu Sep 25, 2014 7:54 pm

If we stay put, we are not going anywhere either...

Singin the BLUES · Post by **Singin the BLUES** » Thu Sep 25, 2014 7:58 pm

Easy enough to do........still no HAG or NZT on first line, and first line shifts need to be above 30 or 40 secs ......easy done....whats so hard or wrong with that?

flyergp21 · Post by **flyergp21** » Thu Sep 25, 2014 8:02 pm

Because like I said, that would allow the possibility of having 2/3 of icet-time for H and G. That is wrong in EHM.

Singin the BLUES · Post by **Singin the BLUES** » Thu Sep 25, 2014 8:04 pm

flyergp21 wrote:Because like I said, that would allow the possibility of having 2/3 of icet-time for H and G. That is wrong in EHM.

it has always been that you COULD have 2 lines of HAG.....but now YOU are trying to change the HAG lines AND the line times......you arent gonna get both if that is what you are thinking...

flyergp21 · Post by **flyergp21** » Thu Sep 25, 2014 8:13 pm

Well 2 lines out of 4 for a real 50% would still be better. Still way too much, but better indeed.

That being said, if people like to see hitting getting the best out of talent, so be it, nothing I can say or do is gonna change a thing.

To me, hitting should be a complement to talent in building a winning team.

Singin the BLUES · Post by **Singin the BLUES** » Thu Sep 25, 2014 8:17 pm

But you dont have to have guys that can hit on a HAG line.......if they can skate.....D&C works good..........i HAD a cpl of players that worked pretty good on D&C....and just traded away a guy that played on my HAG line and didnt have good HI at all......and that line did great in playoffs

AP21 (ARZ) · Post by **AP21 (ARZ)** » Thu Sep 25, 2014 9:44 pm

Singin the BLUES wrote:Well TBH i dont know what type of hockey you are watching, but with me being a Flyers fan, i KNOW they have a H&G line and always have had at least one.....Rinaldo Hall Rosehill........and i kno wthe Leafs have had a few too......Tucker Robert and whomever......i am sure that i could come upwith more if i looked round.......

Mind if I jump to my brother's defence, here?

2013-2014 Time On Ice Per Game
Adam Hall 9:50
Zac Rinaldo 7:41
Jay Rosehill 4:56

You're actually right. We should use that line as a reference for H&G icetime. But let's agree to never cite the Leafs as an example again. Some version of Bub's suggestion would be perfect and very simple. I'm also of the opinion that two thirds of H&G is a bit too much. Quinn, I'm all for creativity as well. Let's forget about those 10 second shifts and take up pottery.

Buffalo LEPS · Post by **Buffalo LEPS** » Thu Sep 25, 2014 9:54 pm

Like I said on another post, if you state a rule that a first line doesn't play below 50-40-30 sec, then I think the problem is solved no ?!?

But pottery sounds good for me !

Singin the BLUES · Post by **Singin the BLUES** » Thu Sep 25, 2014 9:58 pm

You dont remember the last really good hitting line that the Leafs had?
"The Bay Street Bullies" Shayne Corson, Darcy Tucker, Gary Roberts
and they could score too

Jungle Cats · Post by **Jungle Cats** » Thu Sep 25, 2014 10:36 pm

outlaw everything except run and gun.

i'm ready.

AP21 (ARZ) · Post by **AP21 (ARZ)** » Thu Sep 25, 2014 11:53 pm

Singin the BLUES wrote:You dont remember the last really good hitting line that the Leafs had?
"The Bay Street Bullies" Shayne Corson, Darcy Tucker, Gary Roberts
and they could score too

Of course I do, but I believe they played Dump & Grind.

AP21 (ARZ) · Post by **AP21 (ARZ)** » Thu Sep 25, 2014 11:56 pm

Buffalo LEPS wrote:Like I said on another post, if you state a rule that a first line doesn't play below 50-40-30 sec, then I think the problem is solved no ?!?

But pottery sounds good for me !

Exactly. It should be that simple.

AP21 (ARZ) · Post by **AP21 (ARZ)** » Thu Sep 25, 2014 11:57 pm

Buffalo LEPS wrote:Like I said on another post, if you state a rule that a first line doesn't play below 50-40-30 sec, then I think the problem is solved no ?!?

But pottery sounds good for me !

Exactly. It should be that simple.

Post by **SharksGM** » Fri Sep 26, 2014 12:01 am

I wouldn't mind bumping the minimum shift length to 20 or 30s. I would also be okay with ordering lines by ice time, and think that would do more to enhance realism by preventing people putting garbage players on a 10s shift on the first line. Then again, there's only so much you can do to make EHM realistic, so I wouldn't really lose sleep if the line restrictions remain unchanged either. There's just not much you can do to make EHM simulate 2010s hockey - like I don't think there's any way to get reasonable shot counts/save percentages.

I think we should consider bumping up the injury rates, at least in the playoffs. The one thing that I hope gets prevented is something like the 50-50-10-10 distribution that results in forwards playing ~28 mins/game (see: 2010 Lightning). I guess I'm okay with 10 second shifts because they don't actually last just 10 seconds, but I don't think it's reasonable for forwards to play 28 mins/game every other day without getting banged up.

Jets GM · Post by **Jets GM** » Fri Sep 26, 2014 7:42 am

Injuries are already way to high, no way we should be bumping them up.

Post by **SharksGM** » Fri Sep 26, 2014 9:50 am

Tampa Bay GM wrote:Injuries are already way to high, no way we should be bumping them up.

Way too high compared to what, nobody being injured ever? Most NHL teams have around 200 man games lost per season, and some nearly twice as much. That's 2-3 guys out at any given time. There is no way that EHEC's injury rate is even close to as high. If anything I'd guess we have around half as many injuries as the NHL.

Singin the BLUES · Post by **Singin the BLUES** » Fri Sep 26, 2014 9:59 am

This will never end......just in THIS thread alone we go from line times, to tactics and now to injuries......anything else guys?
If it isnt one thing, it is another

CapsGM · Post by **CapsGM** » Fri Sep 26, 2014 10:47 am

Buffalo LEPS · Post by **Buffalo LEPS** » Fri Sep 26, 2014 11:00 am

Can we change the color of the league's logo ?

I'm color-blind and I can't really see the contrast between the colors

Post by **SharksGM** » Fri Sep 26, 2014 11:08 am

Singin the BLUES wrote:This will never end......just in THIS thread alone we go from line times, to tactics and now to injuries......anything else guys?
If it isnt one thing, it is another

What's next, discussing things??? On an online message board????

Singin the BLUES · Post by **Singin the BLUES** » Fri Sep 26, 2014 2:32 pm

Sure, discuss whatever the hell you want.....but do we realllly need 2 threads going on about the same thing?
viewtopic.php?f=7&t=4571&start=150

I dont understand WHY this is such a big discussion to begin with simply because the line time OR tactics wouldnt be able to get changed until next season because some GMs may of already built their teams around those tactics or lines or whatever it is.....You just cant implement a new rules a few days before season starts

Jets GM · Post by **Jets GM** » Fri Sep 26, 2014 6:10 pm

Love that passion in this thread! Were all hungry for that puck drop.

No one needs to get upset about us discussing EHEC. We are all just trying to make the league better, and have different views about how it should happen.

Ultimately, that is why we have guys like Bub who is a level-headed beast and will make the right decision for the league.

Post by **SharksGM** » Fri Sep 26, 2014 10:27 pm

A level-headed beast? What, like a mule or something?

TorontoGM · Post by **TorontoGM** » Fri Sep 26, 2014 11:06 pm

Jungle Cats wrote:outlaw everything except run and gun.

i'm ready.

I second that motion.

Jets GM · Post by **Jets GM** » Fri Sep 26, 2014 11:21 pm

SharksGM wrote:A level-headed beast? What, like a mule or something?

Commish Bub(NYR) · Post by **Commish Bub(NYR)** » Sat Sep 27, 2014 10:53 am

Tampa Bay GM wrote:
SharksGM wrote:A level-headed beast? What, like a mule or something?

Well, that IS how I feel when I get up most mornings.

Should I set up a poll for voting? If so, I'll make the choices pretty simple. I don't want radical changes to what we have, and I don't want to stifle creativity. That said, I think there is something to having a "first line" mean something, esp since the game engine favors the higher lines when it runs the sim.

Jets GM · Post by **Jets GM** » Sat Sep 27, 2014 10:57 am

I feel comfortable having Bub creating a new poll offering options, at his discretion, for line tactic regulations. I think everyone should feel this way.

Penguin · Post by **Penguin** » Sat Sep 27, 2014 11:11 am

I thought of something while reading the thread that I think everyone will like and is very simple.

Your total of H&G and NZT line has to be equal or less to your total of your other 2 lines. So if you have a H&G and NZT line of a total of 100sec, you would need for example one passing plays at 80 and one dump and chase at 20

Im also in favor of minimum 20sec shift.

flyergp21 · Post by **flyergp21** » Sat Sep 27, 2014 12:23 pm

This means you could have 50% of your ice-time given to H and G. That's still a lot to me, but I LIKE this way better than status quo, obviously.