Tampa Bay - New Jersey

[Jets GM]

To the Tampa Bay Lightning: Tyler Biggs (82), Kevin Klein (69) and Alexander Vasyunov (61)

To the New Jersey Devils: Tyler Cuma (78), Sean Avery (62), Joakim Nordstom (74) and 2nd ANA 12

[Devils_GM]

Ok this is a nice trade for NJ, Cuma will develop into an elite Defenseman hopefully for next season. Avery comes in to provide a presence at LW on the H&G line. ANA 2nd will be earlyish, but will most likely be moved on for a player. Vasyunov needed to go the bloke was average offensively and hopeless defensively. Biggs obviously will be a quality player but that is in the future and i am looking to compete next season Cuma helps that a lot more than Biggs does

[Jets GM]

Accepted.

Bling blang blaow. Tyler Biggs is a member of TB. Never imagined a player out there that would make me entertain moving Cuma, but Biggs is that player. Adding him makes Wolski a viable option in my top 6, Seguin and Biggs will make up for Wolski being average. Whether Klein sticks long term will be up to him, not a fan of having two <70 CON d-men in my top 6 but needed a short-term replacement for Cuma. Adding those two 2nds in the Schwartz deal made ANA's expendable, plus they are looking good after the Getzlaf deal.

gl NJ

[Penguin]

Justin close your legs you trade whore!

[Virtual Jarmo]

Justin close your legs you trade whore!

I have to be honest. I'm not real happy with seven trades in one month. If we're striving for realism, this is far from realistic.

[Jets GM]

Justin close your legs you trade whore!

I have to be honest. I'm not real happy with seven trades in one month. If we're striving for realism, this is far from realistic.

Afaik, a "max transaction in certain time period" rule didn't exist. Passing at a opportunity to improve your team would be more unrealistic imo, however I'd be very happy to abide by any rule instituted involving limiting the number of trades a team can be involved in. Until then, I'll continue to trade even my grandmother if I think it makes my team better.

P.S Trades are the best part of fantasy!

[Virtual Jarmo]

Afaik, a "max transaction in certain time period" rule didn't exist. Passing at a opportunity to improve your team would be more unrealistic imo, however I'd be very happy to abide by any rule instituted involving limiting the number of trades a team can be involved in. Until then, I'll continue to trade even my grandmother if I think it makes my team better.

P.S Trades are the best part of fantasy!

Teams probably pass on opportunities to improve their team every day because of any number of factors. Financial constraints being at the top of that list. If teams could make 97 trades per week, they would. But they can't. Just because there is no current rule against transactions doesn't mean that the realistic nature of the league can be mocked.

It's not even necessarily the massive number of trades. It's the recycling of the players from the previous trades then being traded again. That's about as unrealistic as it gets.

To be completely honest, we've been pretty lenient with this pseudo-rebuild that you put together. The undervaluing of draft picks league-wide since the inception has been staggering. Teams you have recently traded first round picks to have not gotten back the value you did by overselling your players during last season or the offseason. To this point, nobody has said a word about it, at least not publicly. Yet, people continue to trade with you for whatever reason. Maybe you should try a future in politics.

The fact that all teams are working with the same salary cap and a lack of financial considerations is probably my fault. Not every NHL team is able to spend all the way up to the cap the way every EHEC team is. There are teams who are barely reaching 10,000 fans per game in attendance, but because of the shortcomings of EHM and my unwillingness to continue to complicate everything EHM does allows those teams to have free reign over whatever they want to do. There is no way a team averaging 10,500 fans per game can have a 50M payroll in the NHL. Shit, my payroll should probably be in the high 40s if we're being honest about economics.

Again, I can't tell you how to run your team. I can't make every GM have saved files at the end of each individual year to project player development the way you do. I can't punish you for knowing how to get every last point of development out of a player. I can't punish you for the amount of effort that you put forth building your team or the fact that you are probably the most active GM of them all.

But, it really disappoints me to see a new Tampa Bay trade posted for 85% of the month of November. It also disappoints me that there are a group of guys here that attempt to vulture players away from new GMs before they even have time to adequately assess their roster. What can I do? A trading moratorium for new GMs? Tried that in MILFH and it didn't go over well. A moratorium for trading newly-acquired players? What does that do except delay the inevitable another week or two? Somebody will inevitably fuck over the new Vancouver GM before he has time to even have two games under his belt.

So what do I do to counteract that? When we get league applications, I send back a very definitive, detailed reply talking about the league's maturity level, intelligence of GMs, and the expectations that I have. Then what happens? I get an answer that it's too serious for them and then I have to think about lowering my expectations and having ill-prepared GMs walk into a lion's den.

None of this is easy for me. I am constantly looking at ways to make the league better and this isn't one of them. In real life, teams acquire players because they like them. Not to pawn them off for another guy. Very, very rarely do you see what you have done multiple times. Constantly having to come up with solutions for problems is making EHEC very not fun for me. It's nothing more than a job. There's no right answer to any of this. I can't tell GMs how to run their teams. I can't keep making rules and restrictions because somebody is going to find yet another way around them and another cycle of this will begin.

I can't become a hands-off Commissioner. I've done too much already to start not caring. I have too many GMs looking up to me to keep running this the way it's been run. It's what happens when standards are set. It's why we have a hard time filling teams. I won't take an application without capitalization, decent punctuation, and coherent answers. All of it is becoming too much to try and maintain and it is epitomized by the trading spree you've gone on.

I'll end by apologizing to you because you've, perhaps unfairly, been the subject of my frustration from yet another trade where a player with 99 HI is somewhat undervalued and the explanations from both sides of the trade are completely full of holes and contradictory. I probably just care too much.

[Jets GM]

No apology necessary Adam, the time I put into my explanation of the trade probably wasn't very appropriate for the magnitude of it. As I said earlier Cuma's name alone made me a huge fan of him, I just kept hearing Johnny Yuma . This league is like crack, and players with 99 HIT are like heroin. When I see posts like "player X with 99 HIT is going to be traded, offer now" the craving kicks in, I have to have him . Or do everything possible to get him, attempting anything less keeps me up at night. If I don't, he ends up in the hands of someone else.

I've sporadically run my team the last few months, the idea of a rebuild was at first very romantic. Winning a Cup (top 5 most memorable experiences of my life) gave me the luxury of being able to sit back, take a few seasons off and build a god like team since some teams did undervalue 1st's (or overestimated the ability of their own teams). Then reality hits, 2-3 years is ACTUALLY 2-3 years. Losing sucks, and with the volatility of EHM leagues existence I wondered about if it was worth the risk of being horrible for a couple seasons only to have EHEC close/fold before I have the chance to make another run at a title. I wasn't mentally prepared for what constant losing would do to my decision making, this has both effected the quality and quantity of my recent trades.

In the end, I know at the heart of it I'm in a rebuild mode. I'm trying to avoid finishing anywhere near the bottom this year, but realize I'm years away from having a legitimate chance at a Cup. This is not only because I traded away all my vets this off-season, but that I packaged those 1sts to land bluechip premiere top-of-the-line EHEC prospects. I entertained the idea of going for more NHL ready players to fast-forward the process, but knowing how good a crop of young talent EHEC possesses I knew the smartest choice was to invest in the long-term.

I made this choice because of how much I believe in the core GMs of this league and the man behind it all. Of course the risk is still there, no one knows what the future holds and you feeling so burnt out is definitely concerning. However, at the end of the day I just know somehow EHEC will be something special that lasts a very long time. I could be wrong, would not be the first time. I consider some of you very good friends, even though never meeting face to face. Some of you I've known since I was 16-17, turning 24 in January I consider that a long time. Somehow, someway this league will go down in EHM history as the GOAT.

While I have no guilt about any of the trades I've ever made I definitively carry some about how persistent and unreasonable I became when some of these trades were rejected. Shoveling more shit on to your plate, instead of being thankful to have a Commish like yourself is very douchebaggish. In this case, I made an effort to ensure NJ was getting an appropriate return for a player as talented as Biggs. Going forward I'm going to try and maintain a holistic view of the league, rather then a individualistic "me vs them/KILL MODE" which is what I operated in the first season of EHEC. I'll be uploading all the fast-sims I have immediately, and would be happy to contribute to EHEC any other way you think of. I've only hesitated because of my rap sheet.

Finally, I think everyone (including myself) can do a better job of acknowledging just how awesome EHEC is and who makes it that way. In terms of politics, you won't see my anytime soon. However, if I was an American citizen I'd be writing "Adam Burke" on my ballot for the president of the USA in 2012.

p.s Quinn rules to, this website is still sooooo sexy.

[Penguin]

You just really can't control realism, Adam! As much as you try. The file was made 2 years ago and obviously players panned out or busted, or even died (Pavol Demitra in our league leaders). You did the most you could do with the financial policy, olympics, AHL playoffs, etc.

I understand your point about slacking off on the trading, but like Justin pointed out, it's just hard not to trade if you see a chance of improvment for your team. Me and him are like sharks for trades and we test sim further to see how players develop because we love this league and we're really into it! Take it as something good, cause it does provide more activity. I was looking into Biggs myself.

I would suggest a trade limit/season. Let's say 4. But, I'm just shooting it out there.

[Montreal Canadiens]

I wonder if the Dallas GM simmed forward to realize JVR is a complete stud and Tanguay is a bum.........

Also did I miss where New Jersey said that Biggs was available?

And where the hell do we get off in calling Tyler Cuma an "elite" defensemen? He'd be the #4 -#5 d-man on my team FULLY developed.

Also vote for no trade limit. If you want to talk about realism, well that is far from it to have a "limit" on trades.

[Devils_GM]

Montreal Biggs has been on my block since the day I joined, it said all players on farm or prospects list are available including Biggs, that was word for word off my block

[Montreal Canadiens]

Oh ok, well I wasn't interested in him anyway, I was just asking for clarification sakes. When I read it I guess I missed him listed there.

But tell me how Cuma is an elite defensemen.

[SharksGM]

I wonder if the Dallas GM simmed forward to realize JVR is a complete stud and Tanguay is a bum.........

Also did I miss where New Jersey said that Biggs was available?

And where the hell do we get off in calling Tyler Cuma an "elite" defensemen? He'd be the #4 -#5 d-man on my team FULLY developed.

I'm assuming Brewer's inclusion was the only reason the van Riemsdyk trade wasn't vetoed. Otherwise I hope it was just on the edge.

As for the repeated trading, I've been guilty of it too having traded away Kane after having him for 14 games... but I think the value was justified. At a risk of throwing stones in glass houses I don't really see how acquiring a superstar like Malkin and then moving him days later makes any sense. Yes, EHM player development is super predictable so you can throw the world at Tyler Seguin knowing he'll be better than Malkin but it really is something that would have a 0% chance of happening in the NHL.

For this trade in particular, Cuma seems like a fair return for Biggs to me. I'm not sure why you're trash talking him when there isn't a single defenseman in the Montreal system who's going to break 75 OFF. '4th or 5th' defenseman my ass, maybe on an All-Star team. But then again Cuma joined TB how many weeks ago? Now TB's awful group of wingers look better for the future, sure, but the defense is missing a top pair defenseman once again, which makes it seem inevitable that another trade will happen next week.

I guess the reason this deal makes sense for TB is that Klein is just thrown in. I'm kind of skeptical that NJ didn't even make a mention of Klein when he's giving him away as Klein is easily the 3rd best asset in the deal. It makes the deal look pretty favourable to TB because IMO it's highly unlikely that ANA 2nd will turn out as good as Klein even if you take Biggs and Cuma as equal. I'm also skeptical when I look at how TB describes Klein, focusing on his <70 CON (give me a break, it's literally 1 point under 70) and calling him a short-term replacement when he looks like a reasonably player to keep. I find it disingenuous when GMs talk down the players they are acquiring in order to make their deals look more fair. At least give your deal a fair assessment. Klein may have average CON & HI but he's not overpaid and could easily put up 30+ points, especially on a top PP unit. I would have liked to see NJ explain the rationale here... obviously his D sucks after Fowler and it makes sense to add Cuma, but I don't understand the logic of dealing away Klein when supposedly trying to compete for a playoff spot. That seems futile to me anyways looking at Fowler's injury.

Beyond that, I also find it unfortunate that a lot of these unsavoury deals are with new GMs. I realize like Adam said that banning trades with new GMs isn't likely to be a great solution, but it really looks like there's a repeating pattern here where good young players are put up on new trade blocks and sent away before half the league is even aware they're available. Maybe some kind of reward for patience would help. I don't seen an obvious solution but I wish new GMs would bear in mind that they don't need to accept the first few offers they get and that a lot of us here start with lowballs and work our way up (guilty as charged).

[Devils_GM]

I did a fast sim whilst we were negotiating this deal and Cuma gets to 78-80, which i consider to be in the elite bracket, could be wrong though i guess

[Montreal Canadiens]

There is no person in any industry in the world that doesn't stop with a lowball to work their way up lol.

Unless something has changed, this is the cielings I have for Tyler Cuma:

78 POT.

SH: 100
PLY: 100
ST: 095

That's 78, 78, 74. 78 + 78 + 74 = 230. 230 / 3 = 76.66 OF

CH: 089
POS: 080
HIT: 111

That's 69, 62, 86. 69 + 62 + 86 = 217. 217 / 3 = 72.3 DEF


A 76/72 d-man is elite? Like I said, is a #4 - #5 dman.

[Jets GM]

Welcome to 2001 Brad, now that you can do basic math you might want to look into other player development techniques then using "Calculator" on your computer.



And that's a fastsim with him on another team, without me manipulating his training to BEAST mode him. I admit my track record is tainted with over hyping players, but this isn't one of those situations. This thread has gotten hijacked pretty bad, but for the record I asked for Oduya/Sarich to replace Cuma. NJ responded with wanting to move Klein, since I considered Biggs/Cuma+2nd the main components of the deal I had no problem taking Klein.

[Montreal Canadiens]

That doesn't guarantee anything. IF he over develops. That magic IF word. You have no idea how he was managed to get to that. Also, you're forgetting he will slowly decline back down to his actual cielings.

You don't know how many test sims I've done where the development never goes the same as the FOR REAL save file.

This is further proving the only reason NJ did this deal is you sold him on the fact that Cuma ABSOLUTELY 100 % will develop into 78/80, and that's false.

Trust me, I know all of the player development techniques after 10 years, over development happens a lot, also doesn't happen as you would like sometimes.

[CapsGM]

people still use winamp?

[Virtual Jarmo]

The problem probably lies with the Committee. We have not been as strict as we need to be on trades. The standards that Ryan and I set at the start of this league did not extend to trading. It's hard to believe that we have only rejected 12 trades in the span of 2.5 years. That's going to lead to some borderline trades being passed. And it's also going to mean that there are some that should not have been passed.

There is a communication problem between myself and Tommy and Quinn. I take responsibility for that.

Now, to the posts so far:

Justin:

I've sporadically run my team the last few months, the idea of a rebuild was at first very romantic. Winning a Cup (top 5 most memorable experiences of my life) gave me the luxury of being able to sit back, take a few seasons off and build a god like team since some teams did undervalue 1st's (or overestimated the ability of their own teams). Then reality hits, 2-3 years is ACTUALLY 2-3 years. Losing sucks, and with the volatility of EHM leagues existence I wondered about if it was worth the risk of being horrible for a couple seasons only to have EHEC close/fold before I have the chance to make another run at a title. I wasn't mentally prepared for what constant losing would do to my decision making, this has both effected the quality and quantity of my recent trades.

The problem with this is that there's no real way to put value on a first round pick. If I look at both drafts, I can reasonably assume that a team will get a top 6/top 4 player in the first round. That's the base value I attempt to put on it. If anything, draft picks should carry far less value than they currently do. With our sim schedule, it will take a calendar year and a half for a first round pick to become something.

Losing does suck. But, you made a conscious choice to do that this season. You should have been forced to see that through.

I made this choice because of how much I believe in the core GMs of this league and the man behind it all. Of course the risk is still there, no one knows what the future holds and you feeling so burnt out is definitely concerning.

I'm not feeling burnt out. I never said that. I said EHEC wasn't fun anymore. The reason why is because I think EHEC has reached its peak. I know of no ways to continue developing and bettering the league. There isn't much more that I can do. I've done what I can and I'm still not satisfied.

I've already made so many improvements and upgrades, plus the new website that Quinn did. It's stagnant. There isn't a lot of conversation anymore on the boards. The majority of GMs just send lines and check results. There haven't been any things that have required GM input or anything like that.

Finally, I think everyone (including myself) can do a better job of acknowledging just how awesome EHEC is and who makes it that way. In terms of politics, you won't see my anytime soon. However, if I was an American citizen I'd be writing "Adam Burke" on my ballot for the president of the USA in 2012.

I don't need my ass kissed, I don't need any kind of validation. It's not a matter of that. I know what I have here.


Bern:

Take it as something good, cause it does provide more activity.

Trades don't increase activity at all, except for the trade deadline. They temporarily increase activity for the two parties involved, but that's it.

You just really can't control realism, Adam! As much as you try.

I can't control realism for everyone else, no. But, the vast majority of the regular GMs have been able to keep their agendas realistic.

Brad:

Also vote for no trade limit. If you want to talk about realism, well that is far from it to have a "limit" on trades.

Never even a thought.

A 76/72 d-man is elite? Like I said, is a #4 - #5 dman.

Properly trained, Cuma should overdevelop CH and PO to his POT. But, this presents an issue because his value is questionable. Sure, Justin can develop him to that. Can the other 29 GMs? I don't know. What is "value"? Is it current value, expected value, or probable value? Because it's probable that at least half of the league would have trouble getting him to his full defensive potential. In one sense, this is a realistic notion. In another sense, how far away from Tyler Biggs is a non-fully developed Tyler Cuma? This is a laughable question. Very far.

But is it the Committee's job to rule based on that? Or on the trade as it's presented?


Dan:

I'm assuming Brewer's inclusion was the only reason the van Riemsdyk trade wasn't vetoed. Otherwise I hope it was just on the edge.

Brewer made it barely passable.

But then again Cuma joined TB how many weeks ago? Now TB's awful group of wingers look better for the future, sure, but the defense is missing a top pair defenseman once again, which makes it seem inevitable that another trade will happen next week.

This is EXACTLY what I am talking about. Teams don't trade to make a hole at one position to trade and make a hole at another to trade and make a hole at another, etc. That's unrealistic.

Every trade Justin makes creates another deficiency. No GM would ever do that. And if they kept doing that, they'd get fired.

Beyond that, I also find it unfortunate that a lot of these unsavoury deals are with new GMs. I realize like Adam said that banning trades with new GMs isn't likely to be a great solution, but it really looks like there's a repeating pattern here where good young players are put up on new trade blocks and sent away before half the league is even aware they're available. Maybe some kind of reward for patience would help. I don't seen an obvious solution but I wish new GMs would bear in mind that they don't need to accept the first few offers they get and that a lot of us here start with lowballs and work our way up (guilty as charged).

And people wonder why I'm so adamant about finding good GMs. Why I'm so adamant finding experienced GMs. Why I want to make it very clear to prospective GMs that this league will chew you up and spit you out if you aren't prepared.

Then, what will happen is that a new GM will flake out and then leave an orphaned team devoid of talent. How am I supposed to fill those teams?



There's no solution for me. If I begin rejecting all kinds of trades for being borderline, it's going to create more hassle than it's worth. This is supposed to be a fun diversion from life. For some of you it is. For me, it hasn't been for a while. Because I continuously have to be thinking about the welfare of the league and creating new provisions to try and keep people from getting dicked over. I can't even focus on my own team. It's the reason that Ryan asked to be off the Committee. I can't blame him for that.

For reasons such as this.

[Virtual Jarmo]

people still use winamp?

I do.

So much better than iTunes or WMP.

[Montreal Canadiens]

You can never guarantee over development so you should always look at the base of the player, that's just my personal opinion on things. You think NJ is going to be pleased with this deal if Tyler Cuma doesn't develop to 78/80 as you are projecting him? Absolutely not.

[Jets GM]

re: Cuma, he's 29 in that pic. Player decline from over development usually occurs around 25 from my experiences. The year before his attributes are nearly identical. As far as me knowing super development techniques to get him to that level, they aren't needed. the CPU did that just by training him on defense and using default setups for training regimens. So despite what people are saying, Cuma will most likely (if not for SURE) get to where that picture has him at.

But if this deal needs to be sacrificed and TB made an example of in terms of trading etiquette and realism, if the TC believe it to be for the betterment of the league I'm all for it. However, I think it's a slippery slope rejecting deals because they don't look aesthetically pleasing or realistic. Deals where peoples inexperience is being taken advantage of or collusion is expected is where I see the TC stepping in to prevent it from happening. Regardless, all I am trying to do is build a dynasty. Whatever I think does that, I will do.

[Montreal Canadiens]

you still can't guarantee it 100 %, how do you know if he was trained on defense if it was on another team? His training could have switched at any time.

Why not wait until the end of the year (or next) or whatever amount of time it takes when Cuma is 78/81 and then swap him for Biggs. Not going to change the fact that his o/d will eventually go down and he won't be 78/80, but atleast at the time being he would be.

Look at Sam Gagner, last year he was 78/81. This year he is 75/78.

[Jets GM]

And just so everything is relative, based of MTL's archaic way of predicting player development Biggs will look like this:


SH: 78 PM: 64 ST:58 OFF: 66

CHK: 80 POS: 72 HIT: 96 DEF: 82

If people think Biggs will develop like this or Cuma will develop like MTL mentioned they are sadly mistaken, but if your using the (.pot x ceiling) formula both players should be examined that way.

[Montreal Canadiens]

Biggs won't have 58 ST. that's for sure.

But sure, if you want, take Biggs at 68/82 and Cuma at 76/72 and Biggs is still worth 100 x more than Cuma.

[Jets GM]

you still can't guarantee it 100 %, how do you know if he was trained on defense if it was on another team? His training could have switched at any time.

Why not wait until the end of the year (or next) or whatever amount of time it takes when Cuma is 78/81 and then swap him for Biggs. Not going to change the fact that his o/d will eventually go down and he won't be 78/80, but atleast at the time being he would be.

Look at Sam Gagner, last year he was 78/81. This year he is 75/78.

Your right, I can't guarantee it 100%. I could tell you in 4 or 5 separate fastsim's he develops almost absolutely (as close to absolute as possible, without actually being absolute) the same. He was trained on DEF the entire team because by default, CPU trains F on ATT, D on DEF and G on GOA. Sporadic training of Physic might have occurred, but icetime usually only effects shooting and hitting. Why wait for something if you want and can do it now?

Biggs wont have 58 SH? Why not? Using your system he would..

[Montreal Canadiens]

Still doesn't change the fact that his attributes will eventually go down and or fluctuate between 78/81 and 76/72. Sam Gagner is a perfect example.

[Jets GM]

I can't confirm or deny those statements since I have not simmed behind 2019, thinking I wouldn't need information 10+ years in advance to justify trades. At this point, this whole thing is turning into the Kassian deal all over again and I said I wouldn't take up the leagues time arguing the validity and fairness of my trades.

Brad, if your going to use one formula to negatively comment on a player then disregard the findings on another using the same formula "just because" I'm going to have a hard time putting stock into anything you say. Could Cuma all of sudden nose dive at age 31? Sure, but there is zero evidence he does and I can't recall any other trade being dissected to the point were discussing players development 10 years down the road.

I think this trade clearly satisfies the criteria outlined by the TC in the rulebook and rulings on prior trades. If realism is now being included in the criteria, this doesn't since giving up a sizable package to land Cuma to only flip him weeks later is bananas. Up until this point, that's not how things have been running and I had been given no indication my transaction spree was upsetting the powers to be so I continued to make the moves I felt were in the best interest of the team. I think some bias towards me and my prior trade felonies is happening ITT, but regardless I support the ruling and future modifications to trade standards the TC imposes.

[Virtual Jarmo]

This trade will likely be on hold for a while. At least a week or so. I'm going to be discussing some things with an exploratory Committee to look at some of the points brought up in this trade thread and then make a ruling based on what is discussed.

[GoJetsGo]

After much consternation this deal has been approved.

A properly developed Cuma is easily a top four defensemen league wide, and even better on a few other rosters. Biggs' potential has been on display since draft day as a top ten pick.

Klein's development is a gamble, if he reaches his projected playmaking attribute he becomes a PP contributor. If not, he's a borderline 3rd pairing defensemen. We believe Anaheim's 2nd + Avery is fair compensation.

Vasyunov/Nordstrom essentially throw-ins.

[Jets GM]

Biggie, Biggie, Biggie can't you see. Sometimes your words just hypnotize me.


WOO BIGGS!

[GoJetsGo]

Entered.